Monday, August 9, 2010

Behind The Mosque

I know that this is an election year and that before long we will be full on in the middle of "silly season." But someone needs to explain to me what the big ass deal is about the so-called "Ground Zero Mosque" in New York City.

First off, that description is a terribly poor fit. The mosque will not be located on ground zero. In fact, it is actually 2 1/2 city blocks from the site of the former World Trade Center. That's about 250 yards or 2 1/2 football fields away. So let us please dispel the notion that this mosque will be set up on hallowed ground.

Still. this is far too close for far too many. To those who would argue that a mosque has no business anywhere near the site, I would ask, "How far away is far enough?" 6 football fields? Albany? New Jersey? Where would it be okay with you to have a mosque? My guess is that many of these folks would wish that there be no mosques anywhere in the United States.

I'm also willing to bet that most of the people that espouse this point of view can be found in Tea Party rallies carrying on about the constitution. Ah yes, the constitution. That landmark document that preserves freedom of religion. Say what? Yeah, that's right, freedom of religion. Of course, I know many of these same people would argue that the founders of our nation were Christians, and therefore the freedom that they were referring to didn't include any heathen beliefs. However, if you are a strict constructionist and go by the letter of the constitution--and I know you do--then you are just flat out wrong. The constitution does not state a national religion. In fact, it seems to make great pains to avoid such a proclamation.

Now of course, there are people who aren't Tea Party types who have discomfort with this as well. They think it's in bad taste, or they just don't like the idea of a Muslim worship site near the place where our greatest modern national tragedy happened and was perpetrated by radical Muslims.

But therein lies the rub. Radical Muslims did this, not everyday Muslims. Most Muslims may have issues with some U.S. policies, but don't we all? And that doesn't mean that the average Muslim wants to blow up all of our buildings. Far from it. Most Muslims want to assimilate into our society while still retaining their core religious beliefs and a place to practice them. What's so bad about that?

Which brings me to another point: fear. Why are we so governed by emotion and so easily frightened? I have lived for the last seven years around the corner from a mosque. Hell, I think we were in the neighborhood for 2-3 years before a friend pointed it out to me. Up until then, I hadn't even noticed. I can tell you with a straight face that never once have I seen or heard a single disparaging word about that place of worship.

If we really want to worry about radical Muslims, we should probably be more concerned with what we don't see. I can't imagine a mosque that is less likely to be radical than one down the street from Ground Zero. And shouldn't we be trying to bring moderate Muslims in as opposed to pushing them away? Wouldn't we be better off as people if we understood their beliefs and traditions on a higher level? I certainly think so.

Lastly, I think it's important to remember that this is still America. A nation of laws and immigrants. We should no more disallow the lawful existence of a mosque in New York City than we should disallow rednecks driving up in trucks in front of the Oklahoma City Building.

Because, it's not who you are, it's what you do. And we can do better than this.

Sumo-Pop
August 13, 2010

136 comments:

  1. Cheryl Jenkins JacksonAugust 13, 2010 at 10:08 PM

    Cheryl Jenkins Jackson likes this.

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  2. Nina Delany likes this.

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  3. The deal is, it's offensive. That's the argument, but obviousy, the real underlying problem is that people are uncomfortable with Muslims. That's the reality of it.

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  4. It's not a mosque, it's a community center with a prayer room. All the opponents of it leave that little tidbit out.

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  5. Or the fact that it's not "on" ground zero. And why is it offensive to have a mosque, community center, whatever 2 1/2 blocks from the hole in the earth that is ground zero?

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  7. I like that you hit on the geography of the argument. In NYC 2 1/2 blocks is a long ways away. The other aspect of this non-argument is intolerance. Free practice of your religion or non-practice of a religion means all religions, not just yours. It is terribly worrisome.

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  8. check out the facebook site for Politics Daily, there's a story in today's links; in the comments you'll find good examples of the "rationales" behind the opposition. Just take your bayer aspirin first.
    (the big ass deal? they lost the elect...ion)

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  9. and then there's faux news:
    http://mediamatters.org/research/201008130015
    (thanks Emmanuel)

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  10. If people REALLY wanted to show their disdain for what happened....they would admit that a majority of the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, and in protest, refuse to use any oil or gas until we stop buying from them. But then they couldn't use their ATV's and Hummers...so nevermind. =S

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  11. ‎@David: I can't even guess what's going through the heads of the critics. I try to understand, but I really can't.

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  12. Bigotry cannot be explained using logic.

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  13. There's also already a Masjid, or mosque, about four blocks from the WTC site. Apparently this is where the hypothetical "buffer zone" extends to -.-

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  14. Janet Labarile GuckelAugust 14, 2010 at 7:21 AM

    Palin needs another non issue about which to get her knickers in a twist.

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  15. Doesn't freedom of religion say all that needs said about whether or not to allow this Mosque.
    The glaring standout for me is that so many who oppose the Mosque and call for stopping it are the same ones who are always complaining that they ...want less Government intervention in their lives. They don't want Government telling them what they can or cannot do, but the minute some issue gets their panties in a bunch they begin calling on Government to interfere in someone else's life, affairs, and religion. This proposed Mosque is on private property and will be privately owned so it is none of the public's business. It is also a Constitutionally protected right.
    Religious conservatives in particular have bullied to get the Government and the Nation formed in the image that they alone see. They want freedom to do as they wish and at the same time try to get laws passed that will impinge the freedom of others. No sale of liquor on Sunday in my area is just one small example out of dozens of larger ones. I support their right to not drink or purchase liquor on Sunday as I believe they are free to observe whatever religious practice they wish, but they constantly try to force their religious values on all and in doing so violate the freedoms of others who see things differently.
    Apparently the biblical concept of free will is overlookable, as is the concept of do unto others as you would have done to you. Instead they decide what is right or wrong for all and try to enforce it through legislation and disregard any concept of allowing others the same freedoms that they demand for themselves.
    This is exactly why the founders erected the wall of separation, it is there to insure equal freedoms to all.
    The extreme right is always harping about their dedication to the priciples of the Founding Fathers but convieniently overlook that the founders were first and foremost enlightened rationalists.
    It is plainly observable that extremists bear no resemblance to enlightened rationalism.

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  16. Has anyone mentioned that there is a Mosque at the Pentagon?
    Apparently the Pentagon, which can't find $9 Billion dollars (again), can at least still differentiate between a Muslim and a terrorist.

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  17. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 14, 2010 at 7:25 AM

    It's not the "Muslim thing" it's the fact that there's something very wrong with this whole picture; the ties, the opening date, the mammoth structure of it, the proximity and to me most of all the name of it. If you look into the history o...f Cordoba in the Muslim faith it's very symbolic as they conquered a city in Spain in their quest to take over Europe. I'm all for religious freedom but I'm not a fool who in doing so would let radicals indoctrinate under the guides of freedom. Our founders never ment freedom to be self destruction. Remember how Palestinians were dancing in the streets on 911, throwing candy to children? It all means something to radicals, symbols are everything to them, it's empowering.

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  18. in other words: PARANOID RAAAAAAAAAANT!!!!!!!!

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  19. Suzy Applegarth likes this

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  20. C.H. Fisher likes this

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  21. don't throw the f word at them, it scares them

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  22. BUT! The Pentagon was also a 9/11 target! It's, as you put it, a slap in the face, and yet nobody has raised an issue.

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  23. you're silence is deafening, Joe Rubas

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  24. Linda Fisher likes this.

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  25. Georgia...this calls for something a little stronger than Bayer aspirin...

    http://www.a1b2c3.com/drugs/opi016.htm

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  26. oh how fabulous.....I'm saving my heroin addiction for later in life.....but I would love to have one of those bottles! (my favorite cannister is an old metal film container, fits in my pocket but can hold an eighth.)

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  27. Less than a fifth of the crude we import comes from Saudi Arabia, they're #3 below Canada and Mexico with Venezuela and Nigeria just below them. We should bomb them, just because, and then build a church there.

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  28. Read the article. WOW! Your reall taking that 'Freedom of Speach' thing seriously. I don't agree with everything but I do with most. You spoke your mind and that is to be respected. I wanted to make a joke and ask if you were a communist seeing as how you are such a fan of the REDS (Cold War reference), but I didn't.

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  29. David, your thoughts are very intriguing, and I agree with every word. I hate that my country was once so strong and all powerful, now we seem to cringe with fear at the least of things. But, maybe the POTUS ' recent remarks will help us become strong again. Thanks for the writings!

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  30. Larry Farbstein The big ass deal is that the site they want to build the mosque at was a ......Burlington Coat Factory....what an insensitive thing to do to people who love their coats, and a whole lot more. I mean where else can you get a nice trenchcoat or leather jacket for just a couple of hundred bucks. Oh the humanity....They had deals on great jackets, coats and well everything you could want. It's blasphemy to build a mosque, ok a community center there on such hallowed ground.

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  31. Vince Yanez praise be thy navy blue coat with detachable hood!

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  32. and brass buttons.

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  33. There are no 'ties.' The opening date is a full-on lie. The structure is already in place - not being built and it's over 2 blocks away from Ground Zero. That and every other myth Sandy and wingnuts are speculating about is complete made up bullshit! That tells me it IS about the 'Muslim thing' after all because what else explains their willingness to so clearly reject reality and facts and even our American principle of freedom of religion?

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  34. and yet your perfectly fine with that mosque in the Pentagon, another 9/11 target....

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  35. So they are erecting a building that already exists? I think you're a little too erect.

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  36. Thank You, President Obama.August 15, 2010 at 5:45 PM

    To build or not to build, that is the question. The Muslim community says: hey, we have the right to do this and there's already a mosque right down the street. what's the big deal? The NY City firefighter plaintiff says: hey look--some of the landing gear crashed into the building you want to rebuild. this is a cemetery for victims. we have to be sensitive to the MUSLIM world? why aren't you being sensitive to the VICTIMS

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  37. You cant be serious.?

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  38. How much time do you have buddy?

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  39. nothing really,..... just something else to get all butt hurt about and vehemently try to block, it's their new national sport

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  40. I am as serious as a heart attack. Read the article before you flip. Then feel free to flip. I'm sure you will.

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  41. Conservatives are angry that we are attempting to extend civil rights to people who didn't vote for them.

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  42. Wont flip. BUT the death of loved ones at the hands a radical muslims who worship in a mosque is in very very bad taste to build it 300 feet away from where this shit took place, Build the damn thing say several miles away. not 300 feet away where people are always reminded that these radicals did this shit . Im not saying dont build it at all BUT not that close. have some RESPECT.

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  43. A slap in the face.

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  44. Nice job painting them all with the same brush. Tim McVeigh was a Christian (at least that's how the lunatic saw himself), should there be no Christian churches near the Okjlahoma City building? Not to mention, the pentagon has a Muslim prayer space as well, and if memory serves, they got hit on 9/11 too.

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  45. Dave, take a flying leap.

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  46. Maybe we should get rid of all places of worship until they start paying taxes.

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  47. Very creative response, Joe. Getting your material from the sixties, I see.

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  48. are you talking to Joe Ruba poet laureate, famous writer of the internet? Or Joe the bald eagle tea bag.

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  49. Well, that's the type of intellectual response I was waiting for. Your cleverness knows all bounds.

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  50. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 5:54 PM

    That McVay thing is stupid. Radical Muslims have repeated attacked and attempted to attack this country in the name of Allah. McVay did it on the anniversary of Waco because of Waco and Ruby Ridge. Big difference. Now if a giant fertilize p...lant were to open a block away from the Murrah Federal Building that would disturbing now wouldn't it? Or let's say a giant militia group put it's head quarters there you would not find that disturbing. Oh but then they open it on the anniversary of the bombing of the building, oh and the leader backs say...David Duke. Then you find out this building will cost 100 million and they will not let you know where they got 100 million from. Oh and the best part is, they are also making it a community outreach center, now you wouldn't wonder what the kids in the community could learn from that place right? it's on the up and up. Now then you have a comparison and I would bet you would think it was wrong...correct?

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  51. To quote the great Ray Davies: "Paranoia, selfdestroya."

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  52. I get my jokes from 1969, the same place Dave gets his "politics."

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  53. Melissa Wolfe MahlerAugust 15, 2010 at 5:57 PM

    its 2 blocks away from Ground Zero. Many muslims perished with jews and Christians on sept 11. Also, freedom of religion isn't just a suggestion.

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  54. Kelley Forbes CrawfordAugust 15, 2010 at 5:57 PM

    Great article! I totally agree!

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  55. Way to stand up for what this country is supposed to be. Freedom of religion for everybody. GOBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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  56. This is a right-wing false argument. There were muslim victims murdered right along with every other faith during the attack.

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  57. There's also a Muslim prayer space at the Pentagon too. Seems to me they got hit as well.

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  58. first of all, urges everyone to read this article: http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100804/us_time/08599200843200. It will make what I’m about to say make a lot more sense. Isn't this EXACTLY what we need? I mean I'm kinda seeing this whole 'Community Center' plan as an APOLOGY from Muslims who had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT. Just my opinion, of course. (Does anyone else remember the 'Interfaith Service', or whatever it was called, that was held in Yankee Stadium after 9/11 when every single member of the different clergy that were representing the more 'main stream' religions broke out their ~goofy hats~, so the peeps in the turbans didn't look so alien?) Don’t forget this attack was horrific for this country's Muslims too, especially those that lost family members in the attack. People of all faiths died on 9/11, and not just Americans. (And NO, I am NOT counting the perpetrators of the attack in anyway whatsoever. Those terrorists truly were not practicing Islam in any fashion.)

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  59. Dave. did you lose anyone that you knew in any of those places?

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  60. Had a couple friends go missing for awhile. Was damn scary. There were more than a few Muslims who died inside as well.

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  61. His backbone, oh, and his sanity

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  62. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 6:02 PM

    Not that being from the NYC area gives me card blanch or any NYer on this subject, but I can tell you this; All of my friends on facebook who are from the NYC area even the liberal ones are not happy about this...AT ALL. See if you would pu...ll up some of the NY papers and see what is going on concerning this "mosque" you would know there is a lot more behind the seen that's stinks to high heaven about his thing. You may also then know that there are 200 mosques in the NYC area so it's hardly a "muslim" thing, it's a radical islamic who want to destroy our civilization so they can "screw virgins" in heaven

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  63. Thank you :D

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  64. Robert,
    Tell us what it is about. I scrammed through the article and it says that the muslims want to built a temple, and the president gives them his approval. But certain officials, I believe from the White House, don't agree.

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  65. I already said Ishmael. People are grouping all the people man woman and child in the muslim in with a bunch of radicals. This parinoia is so high that they refuse to allow mosques (or in the case of NY a cultural center with a prayer room)... from being built in WI, CA, CO, ect. Some conservatives are even going as far as saying they should ban mosques outright because of what some radicals did. This is so far against the Freedom of Religion it isnt even funny.

    This is on par of denying the building of any catholic churches because they allow for the molestation of children.

    In short, not all muslims are terrorists, just as not all catholics are child molesters, and not all christains are terrorists (seeing as a christian who hates the "killing" of a fetus they decide to kill a doctor who was just doing his job)

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  66. Joseph Evins ‎'d answer this but I'm busy building a Klavern for My klan at the sight of the MLK assasination

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  67. Yeah, because that's a fair comparison.

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  68. Yeah , The Muslims on the damn planes. I dont give 2 flips about them. and as for the other muslims? wtc, pentagon. Those families should be pissed also.. Its just plain insensative and will only lead to more problems. You hide and watch. ...Its about Respect for those who died.
    I hope Con-edison doesnt sell their half of the building, This way the thing will never go up!

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  69. Dave, go get a tall, frosty glass of Obama-Aid. We'll wait.

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  70. Reading and understanding don't always go hand in hand.

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  71. ‎@ Sandy, thats right , this isnt about denieing ones right to a house of worship. like you said their are many mosques in NYC , Its the pefrect insult to build it right near the WTC property.

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  72. @Peter, they do need all the help they can get.

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  73. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 6:15 PM

    Paranoid????

    1979
    Nov. 4, Tehran, Iran: Iranian radical students seized the U.S. embassy,

    ... 1982–1991



    Lebanon: Thirty US and other Western hostages kidnapped in Lebanon by Hezbollah. Some were killed, some died in captivity,

    1983



    April 18, Beirut, Lebanon: U.S. embassy destroyed in suicide car-bomb attack; 63 dead, including 17 Americans. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility.

    Oct. 23, Beirut, Lebanon: Shiite suicide bombers exploded truck near U.S. military barracks at Beirut airport, killing 241 marines.

    Dec. 12, Kuwait City, Kuwait: Shiite truck bombers attacked the U.S. embassy and other targets, killing 5 and injuring 80.

    1984



    Sept. 20, east Beirut, Lebanon: truck bomb exploded outside the U.S. embassy annex, killing 24, including 2 U.S. military.



    Dec. 3, Beirut, Lebanon: Kuwait Airways Flight 221, from Kuwait to Pakistan, hijacked and diverted to Tehran. 2 Americans killed.

    1985



    April 12, Madrid, Spain: Bombing at restaurant frequented by U.S. soldiers, killed 18 Spaniards and injured 82.



    June 14, Beirut, Lebanon: TWA Flight 847 en route from Athens to Rome hijacked to Beirut by Hezbollah terrorists and held for 17 days. A U.S. Navy diver executed.



    Oct. 7, Mediterranean Sea: gunmen attack Italian cruise ship, Achille Lauro. One U.S. tourist killed. Hijacking linked to Libya.



    Dec. 18, Rome, Italy, and Vienna, Austria: airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, 5 of whom were Americans. Bombing linked to Libya.

    1986



    April 2, Athens, Greece:A bomb exploded aboard TWA flight 840 en route from Rome to Athens, killing 4 Americans and injuring 9.



    April 5, West Berlin, Germany: Libyans bombed a disco frequented by U.S. servicemen, killing 2 and injuring hundreds.

    1988



    Dec. 21, Lockerbie, Scotland: N.Y.-bound Pan-Am Boeing 747 exploded in flight from a terrorist bomb and crashed into Scottish village, killing all 259 aboard and 11 on the ground. Passengers included 35 Syracuse University students and many U.S. military personnel.

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  74. Yep, paranoid. I could go into just as long a response about the US. You know, supporting Bin Laden, Hussein, and meddling with Iran's sovereignty, but I'm sure you don't want to hear that.

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  75. Jeanne Bruggeman-kurpAugust 15, 2010 at 6:16 PM

    News must be slow right now.

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  76. Add the first WTC bombing in the parking garges to that list. That my friends was just a test for bigger things to come.

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  77. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 6:22 PM

    1993



    ...Feb. 26, New York City: bomb exploded in basement garage of World Trade Center, killing 6 and injuring at least 1,040 others. In 1995, militant Islamist Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman and 9 others were convicted of conspiracy charges, and in 1998, Ramzi Yousef, believed to have been the mastermind, was convicted of the bombing. Al-Qaeda involvement is suspected.




    Nov. 13, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: car bomb exploded at U.S. military headquarters, killing 5 U.S. military servicemen.

    1996



    June 25, Dhahran, Saudi Arabia: truck bomb exploded outside Khobar Towers military complex, killing 19 American servicemen and injuring hundreds of others. 13 Saudis and a Lebanese, all alleged members of Islamic militant group Hezbollah, were indicted on charges relating to the attack in June 2001.

    1998



    Aug. 7, Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania: truck bombs exploded almost simultaneously near 2 U.S. embassies, killing 224 (213 in Kenya and 11 in Tanzania) and injuring about 4,500. 4 men connected with al-Qaeda 2 of whom had received training at al-Qaeda camps inside Afghanistan,

    2000



    Oct. 12, Aden, Yemen: U.S. Navy destroyer USS Cole heavily damaged when a small boat loaded with explosives blew up alongside it. 17 sailors killed. Linked to Osama bin Laden,

    2001



    Sept. 11, New York City, Arlington, Va., and Shanksville, Pa.: hijackers crashed 2 commercial jets into twin towers of World Trade Center; 2 more hijacked jets were crashed into the Pentagon and a field in rural Pa. Total dead and missing numbered 2,9921: 2,749 in New York City, 184 at the Pentagon, 40 in Pa., and 19 hijackers. Islamic al-Qaeda terrorist group blamed.

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  78. Thats right David, go off the subject, hey i have some waterfront property for sale in Utah if you are interested.

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  79. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 6:23 PM

    Wait there are so many I have to make another:

    2002


    ...
    June 14, Karachi, Pakistan: bomb explodes outside American consulate in Karachi, Pakistan, killing 12. Linked to al-Qaeda.

    2003 1



    May 12, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: suicide bombers kill 34, including 8 Americans, at housing compounds for Westerners. Al-Qaeda suspected.

    2004



    May 29–31, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists attack the offices of a Saudi oil company in Khobar, Saudi Arabia, take foreign oil workers hostage in a nearby residential compound, leaving 22 people dead including one American.



    June 11–19, Riyadh, Saudi Arabia: terrorists kidnap and execute Paul Johnson Jr., an American, in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia. 2 other Americans and BBC cameraman killed by gun attacks.



    Dec. 6, Jeddah, Saudi Arabia: terrorists storm the U.S. consulate, killing 5 consulate employees. 4 terrorists were killed by Saudi security.

    2005



    Nov. 9, Amman, Jordan: suicide bombers hit 3 American hotels, Radisson, Grand Hyatt, and Days Inn, in Amman, Jordan, killing 57. Al-Qaeda claimed responsibility.

    2006



    Sept. 13, Damascus, Syria: an attack by four gunman on the American embassy is foiled.

    2007



    Jan. 12, Athens, Greece: the U.S. embassy is fired on by an anti-tank missile causing damage but no injuries.



    Dec. 11, Algeria: more than 60 people are killed, including 11 United Nations staff members, when Al Qaeda terrorists detonate two car bombs near Algeria's Constitutional Council and the United Nations offices.
    2008



    May 26, Iraq: a suicide bomber on a motorcycle kills six U.S. soldiers and wounds 18 others in Tarmiya.



    June 24, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills at least 20 people, including three U.S. Marines, at a meeting between sheiks and Americans in Karmah, a town west of Baghdad.



    June 12, Afghanistan: four American servicemen are killed when a roadside bomb explodes near a U.S. military vehicle in Farah Province.



    July 13, Afghanistan: nine U.S.soldiers and at least 15 NATO troops die when Taliban militants boldly attack an American base in Kunar Province, which borders Pakistan. It's the most deadly against U.S. troops in three years.



    Aug. 18 and 19, Afghanistan: as many as 15 suicide bombers backed by about 30 militants attack a U.S. military base, Camp Salerno, in Bamiyan. Fighting between U.S. troops and members of the Taliban rages overnight. No U.S. troops are killed.



    Sept. 16, Yemen: a car bomb and a rocket strike the U.S. embassy in Yemen as staff arrived to work, killing 16 people, including 4 civilians. At least 25 suspected al-Qaeda militants are arrested for the attack.



    Nov. 26, India: in a series of attacks on several of Mumbai's landmarks and commercial hubs that are popular with Americans and other foreign tourists, including at least two five-star hotels, a hospital, a train station, and a cinema. About 300 people are wounded and nearly 190 people die, including at least 5 Americans.
    2009



    Feb. 9, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills four American soldiers and their Iraqi translator near a police checkpoint.



    April 10, Iraq: a suicide attack kills five American soldiers and two Iraqi policemen.



    Dec. 30, Iraq: a suicide bomber kills eight Americans civilians, seven of them CIA agents, at a base in Afghanistan. It's the deadliest attack on the agency since 9/11. The attacker is reportedly a double agent from Jordan who was acting on behalf of al-Qaeda.

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  80. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 6:25 PM

    Gee David you have a point, I must be paranoid.

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  81. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 6:27 PM

    SO if what you are saying is you don't blame them???? Are you then saying we deserve it if it's a huge monument to show the radical world they took us down (9/11) and just let them embolden more radicals, recruit more radicals? That's what you are saying. Hey why bother let's let more innocent people die in the streets of America and not safe guard ourselves. I mean we deserve it..right?

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  82. May the first bomb head right for Davids!!!

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  83. Dave, you are one irrational libtard.

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  84. I'm saying I don't live my life governed by fear. And Eddie, you can do better than that.

    And Joe? Well, you can't.

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  85. I think it's fair to say that if you went to some of these Muslim countries they might feel the same way about us. But hey, curse away and call me names, it's the last refuge of the ignorant. I knew you would all get there eventually. Hell, it only took Joe a couple of posts.

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  86. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 6:33 PM

    You don't have to live your life in fear you idiot! You know why, we have a wonderful military safeguarding us. You take for granted our freedom you fool. Why don't you go to Afghanistan and see.

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  87. Im not living in fear. I travel back to NY several times a year. The #1 spot on a terrorists list. i Live in Oklahoma city, Tinker AFB is also on that list . me and my family live fine BUT i am up with the times.

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  88. It was intended ironically, Einstein.

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  89. Well if you want to sidle up with the war criminal's administration, go ahead. Yawn.

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  90. Indeed there is David, and it did. President Obama made no mention of his personal opinion when it comes to building an Islamic Cultural Center 2 blocks from Ground Zero, he only made the point that Freedom of Religion is a part of our Constitution. This entire conversation on Cable TV news shows on this subject has been taken completely out of context. This morning Mr. Nadler was on State of the Union and pointed out that members of congress should not be voicing their personal opinions on this subject because this is not in their job descriptions, and voicing an opinion of any kind would be to steer the conversation in that direction. He, along with President Obama, are 100% correct. Candy provided a right-winger to counter Rep Nadler, who made it clear that he thought the building was a bad idea. This is the crystal clear difference between Dems and right-wingers, and just one more reason I will always be voting for Dems, and forever supporting President Obama.

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  91. Need? We don't need it anymore than we need another church, but, this isn't up to me. The question is do they have the money to buy the land and develop it, have they paid all the building permits, and followed the law, and gotten all the approvals they need, if so, then hell yes they should build if they have met all their requirments. IMHO, if we refused this, the terrorists have won. They will have managed to make Americans change our Constitution. The backlash from the righties is pure bigotry and racism.

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  92. Completely agree Pamala. Sometimes it seems like the right wing are becoming the terrorists we need to be worried about with their hatred, bigotry, racism, to say nothing of their control issues.

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  93. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 6:43 PM

    So said are you working on that list of innocent terror attacks of peaceful muslim men, Women and CHILDREN by the United States you said you could produce. I truly would LOVE to see it.

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  94. Dave is just mad HE can't stone women to death.

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  95. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 6:44 PM

    Sandy Smith Drayton I am so tired of people talking trash, they feel it was the case. The sad thing is everyone gives people who say things are true just because they feel it, a pass. People need to call people out on spreading twaddle.

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  96. I don't have list envy. You on the other hand...

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  97. Nah, Joe. I'd just rather drop bombs on people that DIDN'T attack us. There's your list.

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  98. David, you're right!!! How could I forget the fear? I think it is their lifeblood. Thanx for the reminder.

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  99. Peggy, they have serious control issues! SERIOUS...it does not surprise me that the t-bagrepublicans do not identify the control issue within the GOP as the problem it is, or that they go along with it. Judging from the signs they all carried at their t-bag hate-fests, they are seriously undereducated. Heck, if that part of the population had any education at all outside of the Bible, they would research facts and there wouldn't be a republican party because the GOP are all pathological liars.

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  100. Again, totally agree Pamala. It only seems to be getting worse as time goes on.

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  101. The people in the Tea Party that keep bringing up the constitution only want to view the constitution as it pertains to their belief system. Totally agree with what you wrote. It might be in poor taste for them to want to put a mosque there, but it is their right to do so.

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  102. I don't even think it's in poor taste. You know what's in poor taste? The fact that nearly nine years later, we still have nothing but a hole in the ground on that spot. As far as I'm concerned, they can build it right on Ground Zero. At least there would be something there.

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  103. In fact, after they put a Muslim center there, they could follow it up with a Sikh, Hindu, Hebrew, Buddhist and Christian Center there too. And for at least one hour a day, they would have to meet in a common area and talk to one another. That would be a fitting monument to those who perished.

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  104. I agree with Pres Obama on this issue. Freedom of religion is important to protect, even if you don't like or agree with the religion. No one seems to have worried about the rest of the businesses within a few blocks of ground zero so I can only conclude that an opposition to the mosque is based on fear, hate and discrimination. The Bill of Rights are important to the right wing only if they get to pick to whom it applies.

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  105. The fact that their base, the GOP's base, is ready to re-write history to match their ideology (Texas School Books), or disregard our Constitution when they disagree with it, is really no surprise at all because that is how their leaders operate. The GOP are all for "Family Values" until they get caught renting boys, then, they expect immediate "forgiveness" and instant amnesia. That is how the GOP works, and that is how their base works. Racism, bigotry, never make a dang bit of sense.

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  106. Jay Branscomb likes this.

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  107. Sorry...It's up to local New York. Not Obama's yours, (unless you live in Manhattan) what they in Manhattan do. These idiots would what?; have Obama stop them from building a mosque when there's nothing in our constitution to back that up? ...But “don’t try and stop a sovereign state like Arizona from chasing Mexicans and while we’re at it, let’s bring back Jim Crow laws to keep them blacks from voting too! What the hell, let’s let Alabama write their own law they can bring back slavery.” Let New York do what New York needs to do and maybe they can actually move on to build something on that hole in the ground so we can stop having petty arguments about how close is too close.

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  108. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 8:19 PM

    They have every right to put the mosque there david if it's above board (which I doubt). Should they put it there? Absolutely not. If they really wanted to bridge a gap they would never put a huge monstrosity like that next to 911 and open it on....9/11/2011.

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  109. Sandy Smith DraytonAugust 15, 2010 at 8:20 PM

    Better watch those Radical Amish. Dam Christians extremists.

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  110. Ah, there are your true colors. My list is the tens of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians who got "Shock and Awe" (how juvenile), dropped on their heads. Boy Joe, you sure have a hard time making your point without hurling insults and curs...e words around. You and Miss Smith are true vulgarians. Anyone who doesn't agree with you is stupid, I guess.

    And yes Miss Smith, I'm well aware of the resolutions. They just weren't worth going to war over.

    And I see you have your Faux News talking points down with your mass graves and such. Perhaps we should invade Rwanda as well. We were told the war was over WMD's. Since you guys are so list happy, please show me your list of WMD locations in Iraq. I await the virtual sounds of wailing insanity punctuated with harsh language and personal attacks. Come on, don't make me wait too long.

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  111. Charles Norris likes this.

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  112. Because your conflating the clan with moderate Muslims. I bet you'll need to look conflate up. wikipedia.org should do the trick.

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  113. Muslim Americans have just as much right as anyone to build a place of worship on their own property. Just wait, republicans will say scrap the new tower and build a huge ass christian church. This is a religious war to them. They want a new crusade.

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  114. I really don't care where they put the thing, just sayin that it was not going to take a rocket scientist to see that something like this would cause an uproar, thus we have my poor taste comment.

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  115. Always enjoy a little thus, BTW. :)

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  116. Joe quit reading Texas School books....Those lands became Christian by Roman Conquest. Those lands have Never been truly Christian until Constantine and when they were they were ruled by Rome, which means they were under Roman Christian rul...e but the Arab people of those lands were never Christian. There were some Jewish Christians, but they were very undercover at the time. Remember the Christians that were fed to lions in Rome were not Jews but Romans. The Jews back in Jerusalem are still waiting for Elijah to announce the messiah to this very day...

    I'm sure you've heard of the crusades???? That was Rome's last gasp to get the conquered lands back, but they failed. The conquered lands never truly became Rome, and the Arabs maintained their previous culture. They didn't become Roman Christians....they belived in Mohammed instead and drove the Romans out.

    If anyone truly has a bitch in the middle east it's the Canaanites and the Philistines....They got totally wiped out....See More

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  117. Let's not forget all the Christian love shown during the 30 Years' War, or hell, the peaceful, huggy-feely conquest of the Americas!!

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  118. The State Department is sending Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf - the mastermind of the Ground Zero Mosque - on a trip through the Middle East to foster "greater understanding" about Islam and Muslim communities in the United States. However, import...ant questions are being raised about whether this is simply a taxpayer-funded fundraising jaunt to underwrite his reviled project, which is moving ahead in Lower Manhattan.The State Department is either wittingly or unwittingly using tax money to support Mr. Rauf's efforts to realize his dream of a supersized mosque blocks away from the sacred ground of the former World Trade Center, which was destroyed by Islamic fanaticism. This ill-considered decision will raise the ire of millions of Americans and illustrates the limits of what the denizens of Foggy Bottom know about diplomacy

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  119. NataLee DeMichele likes this.

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  120. Linnea Attenson likes this

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