Last week, Major League Baseball produced their yearly Hall Of Fame nominees. The group of players included on the list represent a smattering of no doubters, three confirmed steroid juicers, and--by my count--better than ten borderline candidates.
So, before we get to my list of the most deserving candidates, let's do a little housecleaning.
First, the baseball writers list can include no more than ten candidates. This means that I had to leave off two deserving players off my ballot. I firmly believe that long time reliever, Lee Smith, and all-time greatest designated hitter, Edgar Martinez are deserving of enshrinement. But the rules are the rules, and only ten can make the list.
Secondly, I would have no problem voting for the three most prominent steroid users on this year's group of nominees. 1st time nominees, Rafael Palmeiro and Juan Gonzalez have great statistical arguments as does hold over, Mark McGwire. That being said, on my list I will favor those that have not been proven guilty of using performance enhancers, and because I know that these three are not likely to get anywhere near enough votes to get close to election, I will not waste a vote on them...this year.
Many would argue that those unholy three should not be considered at all. That they "cheated" and are "dirty." True enough, but were they worse people than vicious racists (and Hall Of Famers), Ty Cobb and Cap Anson? Nope. Did they cheat any more than noted spit baller (and HOFer), Gaylord Perry? I would argue no again. But my biggest frustration with those that don't think these statistically and physically inflated former superstars deserve enshrinement is simply this: You can't say a thing that happened didn't happen. Someone hit all those home runs and won all those games. As distasteful as the steroid era was, it is a part of the game's history. And for most of that time, it wasn't even against the rules. That is baseball's fault and baseball's shame. And I don't see the logic behind holding the players responsible for the sport's lack of due diligence. So, put them in the Hall Of Fame, establish a separate wing, and put their transgression on their plaques. If those that oppose this opinion do so because they think it shames and embarrasses the game, well, the game has earned it.
There are also three "close but no cigar" candidates on the ballot this year. I would love to vote for Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly. But the truth is, they were great for a very short period of time, and did not add enough good years on top of those admittedly dominant ones. Also, former Mets and Reds reliever, John Franco, would miss my ballot on his first year of eligibility. He may have been the greatest lefty closer ever though, and I reserve the right to reconsider him in the future.
Now, the last bit. My vote doesn't count, caries no weight, and effectively means nothing. But that's never stopped me before.
So, here is my completely inconsequential ballot. My candidates are ranked in order of merit.
1) Roberto Alomar (second year on the ballot)
The Numbers: 2724 hits, 1508 runs, 210 home runs, 1134 RBI, .300 batting average
The Awards: 12 time all star, 10 gold gloves, 4 silver sluggers, 1992 ALCS MVP
Quite simply, the greatest modern second baseman this side of Joe Morgan. Aside from all the great personal accolades listed above, he was also a great clutch player. His career playoff batting average is .313, and includes two World Series victories with the Toronto Blue Jays. A great hitter, slick fielder, and a winner. So why didn't he get in last year? Because of one terrible incident in his career. Once, after being called out on strikes, Alomar spat on home plate umpire, John Hirschbeck. It was ugly and awful--and completely out of character. Eventually, Alomar not only apologized to Hirschbeck, but contributed regularly to Hirschbeck's cancer foundation, set up in honor of his departed son. Which of course means that the Hirschbeck could forgive him but the baseball writers could not. Ridiculous. Alomar was only 1.3% short of the 75% required for enshrinement, and now that he has served his one year of "punishment" from the writers, I do not expect to be writing about this silliness next year.
2) Jeff Bagwell (1st year)
The Numbers: 449 home runs, 1529 RBI, 1517 runs, .297 batting average, .408 on base %, .540 slugging %
The Awards: 1991 Rookie Of The Year, 1994 MVP, four time all star, 3 silver sluggers, one gold glove
Bagwell is a sabremetrician's dream. The new breed of statistical over analyzers who have created stats like OPS, WAR, and TZR, love Bagwell. As well they should. Bagwell was one of the most complete players of his era. He was a tremendous hitter, a good fielder, and a surprisingly good base runner (202 career stolen bases). The only argument against Bagwell is that he didn't accumulate--due to a career ending shoulder injury--the "slam dunk" milestones (3,000 hits, 500 homers) that typically guarantee enshrinement. I also get the feeling that some writers may hold the steroid era against him. While there is no proof or even a great deal of suspicion around Bagwell, his peak era stats and a body frame that was similar to other users, may be held against him. Which of course, is unfair. To me it's as simple as this: In two years, Bagwell's Houston Astro teammate Craig Biggio will likely be a first ballot hall of famer (3,000 career hits all but guarantees it). And Biggio was probably 90% of the player that Bagwell was. Bags is easily the best Astro of all time. That should be enough.
3) Barry Larkin (2nd year)
The Numbers: 2340 hits, 1329 runs, 198 homers, 960 RBI, 379 stolen bases, .295 batting avg.
The Awards: 12 time all star, 9 silver sluggers, 3 gold gloves, 1995 MVP
For more than a decade, Larkin was the gold standard of Major League shortstops. He did everything exceedingly well. He hit for average and power, fielded his position with aplomb, and ran the bases as well as anyone who has ever played the game. The one knock on Larkin was his health. When Larkin played he was great. Unfortunately, his body often let him down, resulting in a lot of missed games and holding his career statistical accumulation down. However, most baseball historians rank the former Red great between 4th and 9th on the list of the greatest shortstops to ever play the game. There are more than nine shortstops in the Hall Of Fame already. I rest my case.
4) Alan Trammell (10th year)
The Numbers: 2365 hits, 1231 runs, 185 homers, 1003 RBI, .285 batting avg.
The Awards: 6 time all star, 4 gold gloves, 3 silver sluggers, 1984 World Series MVP
The argument for Trammell is almost the exact same one that I made for Larkin. Trammell didn't steal as many bases (236), hit as many homers or for as high an average as Larkin, but he was his equal in all other categories. For my money, he was also the 1987 MVP, despite the voters giving the award to George Bell in what can only be considered a colossal misjudgement. Like Larkin, most historians rank Trammell in or near the top ten of all Major League shortstops. Yet somehow, Trammell has never even received a vote on 25% of the writer's ballots. A real crime. My final argument for Trammell (and Larkin for that matter), is that if I were a General Manager and I had Trammell on my team, and another team offered me Ozzie Smith straight up for Trammell, I would decline. Conversely, if I had Smith and were offered Trammell I would emphatically say yes without hesitation. Smith was a (deserving) first ballot hall of famer and Trammell can't get within shouting distance. Like I said, a crime.
5) Bert Blyleven (14th year)
The Numbers: 287 wins, 3.31 ERA, 242 complete games, 60 shut outs, 3701 strike outs
The Awards: 2 time all star, finished in the top ten in Cy Young voting four times
One of the most undervalued starting pitchers in the history of baseball. A great pitcher on predominantly bad teams over his 22 year career, Blyleven was seldom considered a "dominant" pitcher. But a deeper dive into his career numbers tells a different story. His 3701 strike outs are 5th all time. His 242 complete games are 91st. And most tellingly, he is 9th all time with 60 shut outs. 9th! That's 14 more than Roger Clemens, 23 more than Randy Johnson, 25 more than Greg Maddux, and 35 more than Tom Glavine. So I would ask voters, what is more dominant than a shut out? Blyleven just missed last year by 0.8%. This should finally be his year.
6) Jack Morris (12th year)
The Numbers: 254 wins, 175 complete games, 28 shut outs, 2478 strike outs
The Awards: 5 time all star, 1991 World Series MVP, 7 times in the top ten for Cy Young award
The frustrating candidacy of Jack Morris revolves around one rather silly statistic, ERA. Were it not for his 3.90 career earned run average, I think Morris would already be in. It's the same argument most had against Andre Dawson (only with him it was his on base average). However, I know what I saw with my own two eyes. And hands down, Jack Morris is the toughest S.O.B. I have ever seen. If I had to choose one pitcher to win one game for me and I could pick amongst all the guys I've ever seen, I would take Morris. All you really need to know about Morris is that while pitching for the Minnesota Twins in the 1991 world series, Morris clinched the World Series by throwing 10 shut out innings against the vaunted Atlanta Braves. One word describes this performance: Typical.
*It should also be mentioned at this point that there seems to be a prejudice against the great Tiger teams of the eighties. The only person affiliated with those squads in the Hall Of Fame is manager, Sparky Anderson. By my count, Trammell, Morris, and the criminally overlooked Lou Whitaker should all be in the Hall Of Fame. And a decent case could also be made for Lance Parrish as well.
7) Tim Raines (4th year)
The Numbers: 2605 hits, 1571 runs, 170 homers, 980 RBI, 808 stolen bases, .294 batting avg., .385 on base percentage
The Awards: 7 time all star, one silver slugger, one batting title
Raines exemplary career was largely overshadowed by the greatest lead off hitter ever, Rickey Henderson. Which is only somewhat fair. Sure, Henderson was the best, but Raines was pretty damn great too. The former Expo great is 5th all time in stolen bases and sports an ungodly success rate of 85%. Most writers argue that Raines was not dominant enough. Here's what they are missing: In his career, Raines was intentionally walked 148 times (good for 46th all time). That means that Raines was so feared that pitchers preferred to walk him even though they knew that a free pass to first would probably equal a double after Raines came out of his slide into second base after frustrating another poor catcher.
8) Larry Walker (First year)
The Numbers: 383 homers, 1311 RBI, 1355 runs, .313 batting average, .400 on base %, .565 slugging %,
The Awards: 5 time all star, 7 gold gloves, 3 silver sluggers, 3 batting titles, 1997 MVP
Like Bagwell, Walker is also sabremetrician's dream. His batting average, on base percentage, and slugging percentage all scream Hall of Famer. However, I don't expect Walker to make it in his first year on the ballot for two reasons. For one, Walker missed a lot of games in his career with injuries depressing his statistical accumulation. More significantly to voters however, will be where he played, the launching pad of Coors Stadium in Colorado. Which is exceedingly unfair. Do we hold it against Ted Williams that he could take aim at the green monster in Fenway? Or how about all the Yankee greats that had that "short porch" in Yankee stadium that clearly increased their career home run totals? Or, how about all of the players in the Hall of Fame that played prior to integrations and therefore never faced Satchel Paige or any other of the great Negro League players? Walker couldn't help where he played, but he could help his level of production. Which was fantastic. Lost in large part--due to his batting average and power numbers--was how great of an all around player Walker was. He was a feared canon armed right fielder and stole 230 bases in his career as well. It should also be said, that Walker was a terrific hitter in Montreal (before moving to the Rockies), and an effective one at the tail end of his career in Saint Louis. He was not simply a Coors Field wonder.
9) Dave Parker (15th--and last--year)
The Numbers: 2712 hits, 339 homers, 1493 RBI, .290 batting average, .471 slugging %
The Awards: 7 time all star, 1978 MVP, 3 gold gloves, 3 silver sluggers, 2 batting titles
Also known as my lost cause. If Dave Parker is overlooked in his final year on the ballot, then he will likely never get in to the Hall Of Fame. Just looking at his career numbers and accomplishments, it's clear that Parker would by no means be the "worst" player (Hello Bill Mazeroski!) to be enshrined, yet still, his support is terribly weak (only 15.2% last year). Why? Because Dave Parker used cocaine and largely gave away three of his peak seasons while suffering from addiction. But here's the thing, Parker did come back from that addiction to average 108 RBI over the next 4 years with the Cincinnati Reds. He also packed on a 97 RBI season with Oakland and a 92 RBI season with Milwaukee in his next to last year. When you couple his late career surge with his first 6 full seasons with the Pirates (where he was often considered the best player in the National League), there is a lot to look at here, and most of it is choice. Besides winning the 1978 MVP with the Pirates, he also finished 2nd in 1985, 3rd in 1975 and 1977 and 5th in 1986. Still, all my verbage here is largely wasted. This year, I started a Facebook page called Dave Parker For The Hall Of Fame Dammit!!, and thus far the page has only garnered 14 fans. Parker has never gotten the sort of ground swell of support that eventually carried Jim Rice and Andre Dawson to the Hall Of Fame. Two players that Parker compares favorably too. Such is life.
10) Fred McGriff (2nd year)
The Numbers: 2490 hits, 493 homers, 1550 RBI, 1349 runs, .284 batting average, .509 slugging %
The Awards: 5 time all star, 3 silver sluggers, 2 home run titles
Perhaps no other player on the ballot is more affected by the steroid era than Fred McGriff. Not that McGriff was ever suspected of using performance enhancers (on the contrary he was thought of as a Mr. Clean). But the inflated numbers that his contemporaries put up make his numbers look comparatively modest. However, I do expect his support to increase over the years as voters will begin to look over McGriff's clean career and find he was only a little behind the juicers of the day. What McGriff may have lacked in eye-popping numbers, he more than made up for with consistency. In his 19 season career, Mcgriff hit 30 or more home runs 10 times (he was in the 20s 5 times). He knocked in 100 runs 8 times. 90 another 4 times, and 80 3 times. I would also say that if McGriff would have hit just 7 more home runs (to hit the magical 500 mark), he would be a shoo-in. With all that McGriff did do, should 7 measly homers make such a difference? I think not.
So there it is, that's my list. If I were a wagering man, I would bet on Blyleven and Alomar getting in for certain, and Larkin, Bagwell, and Morris getting close. All told, I think we'll see three new inductees this year from that group of five. Next year's ballot should see at least one more player from this list getting in as the most prominent new nominee will be Bernie Williiams. After that, Bonds, Clemens, and Sosa will be on the ballot and the arguments will get very, very interesting.
Sumo-Pop
December 5, 2010
I think it`s dangerous to vote for too many candidates. Honestly. Because filling the Hall is worse than being too picky. I get frustrated too by the numerous players omitted, but at the same time, it`s vital to make it an exclusive cub ...- I really got the value of it when I went to Induction weekend this year. And right now - I honestly feel that only 4 players are right to be elected now. Those would be the two you considered as locks - Blyleven and Alomar - as well as Raines and Larkin. Blyleven and Raines, in particular, would be considered all-tiime greats to me. Starting pitchers for weaker teams and leadoff hitters are often overlooked..but the statistical presence of both players among their peers is striking.See More
ReplyDeleteYeah, I guess it depends on how you feel about precedent. If Jim Rice, Tony Perez, and Andre Dawson are hall of famers (and I'm fine with it), then so are Parker. McGriff, etc.
ReplyDeleteCharlie Berneche likes this.
ReplyDeleteOf the first year nominees, I think Robbie and Bagpipes are deserving. Robbie was the best second baseman of his era (to include Biggio) and Bagpipes played the game the way it should be: hard and clean. Injuries prevented him from joining some elite categories.
ReplyDeleteI was never a Dave Parker fan growing up, but I think his numbers are as good as several in the hall, to include recent inductee Jim Rice. Plus Parker was better defensively.
There are several that have good career numbers but were no where near the best at their position during their career for any length of time (Blyleven comes to mind). Of course, the last 25 years have been dominated by First Basemen: McGriff, McGuire, Palmero, Bagwell, Helton, Murray, Clark, Galarraga, Howard, Mattingly, Pujois, Thomas (when he wasn't DH), Thome (ditto the DH tag), etc. How do you determine which ones were really the best of their generation (Ok, Pujois is going to claim that moniker, but who are Hall worthy otherwise?) Since career numbers are very similar in a lot of cases, I think you have to look at who played the game clean as the difference maker. Sorry Mark! Sorry Raphael!
I get up to Cooperstown every couple years and it is truly one of those magical places that connects generations of people. I was up in 2000 for Perez' and Sparky's (RIP) inductions...I believe Fisk is STILL giving his acceptance speech.
Thanks for the article. Loved it! Love baseball!
Thanks, Garry. What about Larkin?
ReplyDeleteI liked Barry and think he is in that category of borderline HOF players...I always thought he did not deserve the MVP Award in 1995 (Dante Bichette had far superior numbers, though for Colorado) but was surprised to see he was a 12-time all star which, by my own definition, makes him one of the greats of his generation...he had only 3 Gold Gloves in a league that did not have great Short Stops (Omar Visquel, Ripken, A-Rod, and Jeter were all in the AL) so I really don't think he was a superior fielder (he would not have won any in the AL) so I think he played in the right league at the right time. HOF? I give give you a positive....maybe. Lol!
ReplyDeleteAlso, I feel compelled to add Mark Grace and John Olerud to my list of great first basemen of the past 25 years. Both were fine defensive players, .300 hitters, and classy guys. Unfortunately for both, chicks dig the long ball and neither was a prolific HR hitter.
have to admit, since the Pirates have been on a two decade skin, I have lost interest in baseball. The curse of Barry Bonds.
ReplyDeleteGarry, Barry only had three because Ozzie Smith was "gifted" with two reputation gold gloves near the end of his career when Barry was clearly superior. Also, your forgetting about Rey Ordonez who couldn't hit a lick but was a freak in the field. And, if most historians rank him in the top 10 shortstops of all time, then he should be in. He was a better player than Vizquel, and a better fielder than Ripken, Jeter, and Rodriguez. I honestly don't think they were all that close. Oh, and he was also clean.
ReplyDeleteFun article! I vote for Dave Parker- the Cobra was raw!!!!
ReplyDelete@Matt, next time I see Dave at the golf course, I'm going to tell him you said that! I'd vote for him, too..
ReplyDeleteI always have a soft spot for former Angels!!!! Even if he played only one year with us!!!!! :)
ReplyDeleteRe: Alan Trammell, Jack Morris, Lou Whitaker. I too have often been frustrated by the lack of respect given to these very deserving 1980s Tigers in the HOF voting.
ReplyDeleteTrammell would seem like a very deserving candidate on the strength of his career numbers, especially when viewed against the other shortstops already in the Hall. Although Lou Whitaker may not be quite a HOFer, he was one of the best 2nd basemen in the game during his career, but he scandalously and inexplicably didn't even get the 5% that would have kept him on the ballot. And given the success he had with multiple teams, the number of years he was the best or one of the best starters in the game, the number of teams he helped to be winners, and the number of important games he won, the case of Jack Morris is simply baffling. I would have thought that he was a first ballot guy.
I wonder if the evident bias in much of the national media against Detroit and Detroiters (as we saw in the fight to save GM) may have something to do with this lack of respect for the careers of former Tigers? I wouldn't have thought it possible, but I'm having real trouble coming up with any other plausible explanation.
He's an alright guy.
ReplyDeleteIts his last time on the ballot- I'm shocked he's not already in.
ReplyDeleteI read that and was very surprised since I don't keep up with that kind of stuff. Some people I just figured were going on or were in already..
ReplyDeleteThanks, Matt and Jo Anne. The Cobra rules!!
ReplyDeleteGood article, David!
ReplyDeleteParker was a feared slugger with an unbelievable arm. In the 1979 All Star game he threw out two runners from right field - one at third base, the other at home plate - with throws that were so accurate and so hard that the crowd erupted. Among the best ever.
ReplyDeleteHe was dominant during his best years and very good in the rest. You're right, Fritz. He had a canon.
ReplyDeleteI vote for the Cobra. Enough said.
ReplyDeleteNo way was he better than Omar defensively (second only to Ozzie as far as defensive short stops-13 gold gloves)...unfortunately, Gold Gloves are too often given to players who had great offensive years so I stand by my assumption that Larkin would not have won any in the AL because Omar was better defensively and the others offensively! You're Reds biased...lol!
ReplyDeleteI didn't say he was better than Omar defensively, but he was pretty damn great. And he was clearly a better overall player than Vizquel. No one, and I mean no one, Would have traded Larkin for Vizquel if both were in their prime. But the reverse? I'm willing to bet 90% of GMs would make that deal. And I would vote for Vizquel for the HOF too. Even if he were a slap hitter.
ReplyDeleteI could if I'm not slicing and dicing fools on the political front. This is a discussion I would rather be having, however!!! And it was a damn good article, Dave!!!!
ReplyDeleteI'd take Barry too....much more valuable at the plate and on the bases. BTW, Omar has slapped his way to 2,800 hits AND COUNTING. I think we have been jaded by the big boppers that we tend to overlook guys that get on base, steal bases, play defense, and are good in the clubhouse. Guys that didn't strike out 150 times a year but didn't get 200 hits a year either. Guys that could move a runner over or play hit and run. Grich and Blair and Bernie Williams type of players. Another shortstop that I loved was the Reds own Dave Conception...I think he and Omar were similar, and, yes, I'd take Barry over both. Man, that was all over the place...sorry!
ReplyDeleteNo problem. We ended up pretty much in the same place!
ReplyDeleteHere's my 2 cents:
ReplyDelete1) Alomar-no brainer
2)Bert Blyleven-about 12 years over due
3)Jack Morris- about 7 years over due
4)Barry Larkin-Better than any other SS not in until Jeter is eligible. Vizquel is extremely good, but when you play forever you should have 2800 or more hits
5)Alan Trammell-next best after Larkin that is not in until Jeter
6)Dave Parker-sterioids make him look a lot better
7)Lee Smith-anybody who gets that many saves pitching for the Cubs deserves to be in
8)Jeff Bagwell-good numbers but couldn't get his team to the promised land
9)Tim Raines-such an under rated player
10)Fred McGriff-just a steady power hitter that went about his business year in and year out. very consistant
I think that's a good list, Barry. Its looking like there is strong sentiment for Alomar, which makes complete sense.
ReplyDeleteThanks Matt.....Alomar was just too good. A few of those years that he put up were just sick (in a good way)......and #10(a) on my list was Albert "don't call me Joey" Belle and I totally agree with Dave that Whitaker should be in. Too bad he can't be though
ReplyDeleteAlbert's not on the list. He dropped off two years ago. Nonsense. More productive than Kirby Puckett. A demon at the plate.
ReplyDeleteYeah I know.....protest vote!
ReplyDeleteWe are simpatico!
ReplyDeleteBarry, if you say Omar's numbers are enhanced by his longevity, then the same must be said of Blyleven. He had 287 wins in 22+ years which averages out to 14 wins a year (versus 12 loses). He was an All Star only twice which means 20 times he was not regarded as one of the top pitchers in baseball. He had a good ERA of 3.31 and a great curveball but, like so many others, he was good for a long time, but never great for any sustained length. And therefore, not HOF worthy, in my opinion. He has been passed over about a dozen times, yet creeps closer every year....because they look at those longevity numbers. Therefore, Bert has a good chance of getting in it would appear.
ReplyDeleteI remember reading a Sporting News article (or perhaps SI) about Albert being in the Baseball Hall of Shame. The only way he gets in the HOF is if he buys a ticket!
Blyleven is third all time in strike outs, and 9th in shut outs. Think about that. In the history of baseball, only 4 guys have more K's and 8 more shut outs. He was a great pitcher on a lot of crap teams. It's called being undervalued. And Albert Belle? Yeah, he was an ass, but also one of the 2 or 3 most feared hitters in baseball for 10 years. He was a greater offensive force than Kirby Puckett. And Puckett's in (and should be). He also turned out to be a real creep off the field. You don't hear anything about Belle anymore. Lastly, he wasn't any worse than Ty Cobb or Cap Anson, or racist ass Tom Yawkey for that matter.
ReplyDeletePuckett was a real creep off the field. In case that wasn't clear.
ReplyDeletePuckett was a bad dude for sure. I'm going to have to sleep on Blyleven tonight. I'm not sure where I go with him.
ReplyDelete5th and 9th, Matt. 5th and 9th.
ReplyDeleteDavid, you want your cake and to eat it too. Those numbers reflect a long career, not a great one. He's also 10th on the all-time loss record. He's not in the top 300 in ERA. Never finished higher than 3rd in Cy Young voting. He was on two World Series champions, so he wasn't on bad team his whole career. By your reasoning, Omar is the 49th best hitter of all time....and moving up. The standard HAS to be "were they great," not were they good for a long time. And Bert was not great. Period!
ReplyDeletenever said that Omar would not get into the HOF, in fact I feel he will. I simply said that Larkin and Trammell were better. A lot of good players get into the HOF by having long careers. Robin Yount comes to mind. When I think of the all time greats, he certainly is not at the top of my list. The good teams that Blyleven played on, one was more of a fluke year and the other WS team was once they got Morris. That's the beauty, or crutch maybe, of the HOF is that it is way too subjective to peoples beliefs of what a great player is. Mattingly had a 5 year span or so that was truly great, but I don't think he is a great player. There are many others that disagree and think he should be in. Numbers are Numbers and personality really should be put aside in the debate. Blyleven truly played on some crap teams and still put up good numbers. You can always point to a negative stat on players. Look at Nolan Ryan, he had some horrible negative stats, nobody debates if he should be in or not though. I wrote a blog post earlier this year about current players and HOF chances. in case anyone is interested in reading it.
ReplyDeleteThe Barry Blog: Who Is Hall Of Fame Worthy?
barryskalski.blogspot.com
A cool blog about real estate and life in the South Bend, Mishawaka, Granger, Elkhart, Niles and surrounding areas
Share
Garry, you are completely ignoring Bert's strike outs and shut outs. What two pitching stats define dominance more?
ReplyDeleteGreat column, Barry.
-O-N-G-I-V-I-T-Y!
ReplyDeleteAnd there is something to be said about that. But I just don't agree that being slightly above average for a long time is a qualifier for the Hall of Fame. Look at Koufax; his career numbers really aren't that impressive with only 165 wins, but for about a decade, he was feared like no other: 3 Cy Youngs, 5 ERA titles, an MVP, etc. My point is that he was regarded as a great pitcher for his shortened career; not an average one for a long career.
No way would I ever say Bert Blyleven was one of the greatest pitchers of all time. Or Burt Hooten! Or Burt Reynolds!
He was better than Phil Niekro or Don Sutton.
ReplyDeleteOk fellas, I have been paying attention to the banter back and forth but finally have the time to post. Dave I like your list and think all candidates are worthy. However; I would take Lee Smith and Don Mattingly instead of Larry Walker and Fred McGriff. As Barry said, Smith saved so many games for lousy Cubs' teams playing in a hitters paradise with the wind blowing out, gets him my vote. Think of how many saves he might have had if the Cubs were any good during his tenure there. Mattingly was a rock for the Yanks during his years there. If he were surrounded with talent like McGriff was in Atlanta, I think he might have a ring instead of the stigma of never making the playoffs in his career.
ReplyDeleteOn to the rest:
Robby Alomar: Loved him as a player. Hated him after the 'incident'. Didn't know about his atonement with Hirschbeck. All is forgiven in my opinion. He's in!
Jeff Bagwell: Great player, always wanted him on my team. Good numbers, but to say possibly the best Astro of all time I must disagree. Jose Cruz Sr. patrolled left field in the spacious Astrodome while still putting up good numbers at the plate.
Barry Larkin: Great player, great numbers, great leader and the epitome of class. Not to mention he went to MICHIGAN.
Alan Trammell: Same as Larkin except for the MICHIGAN thing.
Bert Blyleven: Played on some lousy Twins teams but still found a way to win. Didn't throw hard but was able to keep hitters of balance. Also has the best 'Bermanism' in my opinion; Bert 'Be Home' Blyleven.
Jack Morris: This guy was lights out. The peformance for the Twins in the World Series solidified it for me right there.
Tim Raines: If there were no Rickey Henderson, Rock may be considered the best leadoff hitter of all time. He could do it all. (How many players have been hampered by the fact they played for the Expos in Olympic Stadium?)
Dave Parker: Hated him! Only because he wasn't on my team. He was dangerous with the bat and with his arm. Had a CANNON.
Okay Dave, you say John Franco may have been the best left handed reliever ever, I say it's Tug McGraw. I say that in jest because while Franco was all business, Tugger threw well and was a riot to watch on the mound. Not to mention he was a Phillie.
I'm not against Lee Smith getting, I'm actually for it. However, the list was limited to 10 (the same as the actual ballot). Which is one of the problems the HOF has right now. Too many Hall worthy candidates on the ballot. I agree Tug was a riot, but I wouldn't take him over Franco on the field. As my next door neighbor? No contest.
ReplyDeleteJose Cruz Jr was a very good player. However, statistically Bagwell had Sega Genesis years. Which of course makes me suspicious. But suspicion without proof is just conjecture and potentially lible.
Well said.
ReplyDelete